Aerodynamik nyeste tiltag |
![]() ![]() |
Aerodynamik nyeste tiltag |
Mar 12 2010, 10:06
Post
#201
|
|
![]() Erfaren herre ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1.891 Joined: 5. May 04 From: Jylland- Danmark- Europa- Jorden- Mælkevejen- Universet Member No.: 145 |
http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/03/11/235/
Scarbs giver hermed en forklaring på snorklen, hajfinnen og bagvingern. -------------------- "Monaco is just so bad, telemetry is bad, you can't see where the cars are really on the track, radio's bad ... but it'll be fine. It makes it interesting."
|
|
|
|
Mar 12 2010, 10:14
Post
#202
|
|
|
Trofast seer ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 358 Joined: 11. September 03 Member No.: 29 |
Mon ikke den engeniør der har fået den idé har fået 2 flasker god rødvin får månedens idé ?
Det er det jeg elsker ved F1, der skal tænkes hamrende kreativt for at vinde de ekstra 1/100 dele. /f1dk |
|
|
|
Mar 12 2010, 22:16
Post
#203
|
|
|
Bedste F1 Manager '05 ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Root Admin Posts: 1.129 Joined: 7. August 04 From: 2100 Member No.: 204 |
Scarbs giver hermed en forklaring på snorklen, hajfinnen og bagvingern. Jeg syntes der mangler lidt i hans forklaring, for jeg har svært ved at forestille mig at det lidt luft der kan komme gennem snorkelen er nok til at stalle bagvingen. Det kan selvfølgelig være man kan lave noget tricksy noget inde i kanalen bag hjelmen... Hans forklaring om at luft der kommer ud af vingen vil stalle den, virkede umiddelbart forkert, men det er klart at alt efter hvilken retning man dirigerer luften ud, kan man enten med- eller modvirke vindens vedhæftning til vingen. -------------------- |
|
|
|
Mar 14 2010, 11:55
Post
#204
|
|
|
Formula 1 Prophet '08 ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1.396 Joined: 3. February 05 From: Solrød Strand, Danmark Member No.: 241 |
Meget interessant at høre Kiesas forklaring på systemet! Det giver på mange måder mere mening at de tilfører luft til diffuseren istedet for at stalle vingen. Hvis det er det der i virkeligheden sker har McLaren godt nok lavet noget af et bluffnummer ved at få alle de andre teams til at kigge på rygfinnen og bagvingen
-------------------- Nicolai
|
|
|
|
Mar 14 2010, 12:13
Post
#205
|
|
|
Bedste F1 Manager '05 ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Root Admin Posts: 1.129 Joined: 7. August 04 From: 2100 Member No.: 204 |
Kan man tænke sig at begge har ret, og køreren, via røret gennem cockpittet kan påvirke luftens retning, så den enten kommer ud af vingen, eller ved diffusoren?
Ved at fjerne luften fra vingen vil den stalle (= mindre luftmodstand), og tilfører man luften til diffusoren bliver luftmodstanden mindre... Ihvertfald får jeg en ubændelig lyst til at investere i en VIP-paddock billet til australien så man kan få syn for sagen -------------------- |
|
|
|
Mar 31 2010, 16:06
Post
#206
|
|
![]() Erfaren herre ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1.891 Joined: 5. May 04 From: Jylland- Danmark- Europa- Jorden- Mælkevejen- Universet Member No.: 145 |
Næste emne må være Red Bulls evne til at styre affjedringen.
I de artikler der ligger rundt omkring står der Red Bull og nogle mindre teams har dette system - men hvilke små teams vides åbenbart ikke. Her er lidt gætværk på hvordan systemet fungerer: Taget fra en diskution på http://www.f1technical.net/development/288 Well there are 2 rumours doing the rounds. Firstly, that its a ratchet system that adjust according to the pressure being put through the chassis. Its changes when the actual mass of the car changes(alleagedly). The other is the suspension is pumped full of high pressure gas which gradually releases through valves as the race progresses, Ass the fuel burns of and the car gets hugher the gas is released, nullifying the effect. Wether its easily implementable or not is a matter of debate. Whitmarsh of Mclaren sems to think so, as he expects the system on his cars for the next race 5 days from now! Wonder if it will work...... http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82547 Horner believes the fact that rival teams were sniping at them was actually a positive – because it showed how serious a threat his outfit now was. "Ultimately we tend to ignore comments from other quarters, but it demonstrates we are doing something right that they have a need to," he said. -------------------- "Monaco is just so bad, telemetry is bad, you can't see where the cars are really on the track, radio's bad ... but it'll be fine. It makes it interesting."
|
|
|
|
Apr 2 2010, 10:34
Post
#207
|
|
![]() Erfaren herre ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1.891 Joined: 5. May 04 From: Jylland- Danmark- Europa- Jorden- Mælkevejen- Universet Member No.: 145 |
Så ser det ud til at sidespejlene pakkes ind til kroppen igen.
Fra og med det Kinesiske GP må sidespejlene ikke længere være placeret ude på sidepods'ne. Det sker fordi der på seneste har været klager over at langsomme kørere ikke ser hurtigere bagfra kommende kørere. http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/formula-1-news/2...rs-set-for-ban/ -------------------- "Monaco is just so bad, telemetry is bad, you can't see where the cars are really on the track, radio's bad ... but it'll be fine. It makes it interesting."
|
|
|
|
Apr 3 2010, 01:12
Post
#208
|
|
![]() Bedste F1 Manager '08 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Administrators Posts: 3.474 Joined: 5. September 03 From: Rønne og kbh Member No.: 25 |
Nu vi er ved sidespejle, hvad er det så for nogen huller der er i dem?
-------------------- /Allan/ Forstå hvad jeg mener, ikke hvad jeg skriver!
"Felipe Baby - Stay cool" |
|
|
|
Apr 3 2010, 15:53
Post
#209
|
|
![]() Erfaren herre ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1.891 Joined: 5. May 04 From: Jylland- Danmark- Europa- Jorden- Mælkevejen- Universet Member No.: 145 |
Nu vi er ved sidespejle, hvad er det så for nogen huller der er i dem? ![]() Infrarøde temperaturmålere til løbende at overvåge dæktemperaturen på fordækkene: Both types of mirrors are mounted with infrared tyre temperature cameras http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/m...-for-melbourne/ Her kan man se den turbulens der opstår omkring spejlene og hvorfor man derfor gerne vil have dem lidt af vejen. ![]() http://www.foamcfd.org/Nabla/main/wingMirror.html I dagens kval i Malaysia syntes jeg at Renaults spejle var ret store og spidse sammenlignet med de andre teams, har ikke lige kunne finde et ordentligt billede for at få be- eller afkræftet min oberservation ![]() -------------------- "Monaco is just so bad, telemetry is bad, you can't see where the cars are really on the track, radio's bad ... but it'll be fine. It makes it interesting."
|
|
|
|
Apr 3 2010, 17:49
Post
#210
|
|
![]() Bedste F1 Manager '08 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Administrators Posts: 3.474 Joined: 5. September 03 From: Rønne og kbh Member No.: 25 |
Tak for det Mir!
Tænkte også på om ikke det nogle huller til kameralinser, så helt ved siden af var det ikke. -------------------- /Allan/ Forstå hvad jeg mener, ikke hvad jeg skriver!
"Felipe Baby - Stay cool" |
|
|
|
Apr 5 2010, 18:08
Post
#211
|
|
![]() Erfaren herre ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1.891 Joined: 5. May 04 From: Jylland- Danmark- Europa- Jorden- Mælkevejen- Universet Member No.: 145 |
Jeg tænkte lidt over Mac's F-duct system. Det skulle jo give højere tophastighed på langsiderne - men det virkede som om de andre hang ganske godt med på Sepang og Force India var sågar lidt hurtigere.
Det kan selvfølgelig være at Mac's har valgt et setup der ikke er helt så hurtig på toppen. Men stadigvæk syntes jeg ikke det var noget der sagde at F-duct er så stor en forskel. Er der nogen der har et andet syn på dette? Jeg har forsøgt at finde hastighedsmålingerne fra Sepang for at kigge lidt på tophastigheder, men har desvære ikke været i stand til at finde nogen data. Jeg har dog fundet frem til "During Friday's practices, Lewis Hamilton was fastest through the speed trap at 303km/h, 6km/h faster than his nearest rival." Lidt flere stats fra de to foregående løb siger følgende: Bahrain Driver Team Top speed Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 314.8kph Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes 313.2kph Nico Hülkenberg Williams-Cosworth 313.1kph Australia Driver Team Top speed Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 310.3kph Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes 305.0kph Fernando Alonso Ferrari 303.0kph I Bahrain er Hülkenberg ikke langt efter - mon det skyldes en forbremsning eller hvad? I Australien derimod ser MAc'sne ud til at være ret hurtige sammenlignet med Alonso, men i kvalifikationen var Button med en tid på 1:24.675 et stykke efter Alonso's på 1:24.111. Og i Bahrain var Mac'sne også et stykke efter. Det er svært at bedømme deres virkelige pace på Sepang - men i sidste træning lå de med næsten samme tider som RBR og Ferrari. Og da det ser ud til at Ferrari'erne ikke er grimmere ved deres dæk end Mac'sne så syntes jeg det er lidt svært at se hvor meget der er vundet ved F-duct systemet. Nu har jeg lagt mine sammenligninger på kval tiden og dermed har jeg ikke set hvor konsistente tophastighederne er under et helt løb. Der kommer dog flere og flere meldinger om ligende F-duct systemer på de andre biler - Sauber testede et af under Sepang og Ferrari er i fuld sving med også at få installeret sugerøret på deres vogne. Så et eller andet må det jo give noget. Adrain Newey er ude og snakke lidt omkring sikkerheden i F-duct systemet. Speaking to Gazzetta dello Sport, Newey said: "McLaren's F-duct is intelligent and opens new ways. However I'm worried about the safety aspect. The system works by stalling the rear wing and getting rid of the load. To force a driver to make a sudden movement to change normal load conditions has to do with safety." -------------------- "Monaco is just so bad, telemetry is bad, you can't see where the cars are really on the track, radio's bad ... but it'll be fine. It makes it interesting."
|
|
|
|
Apr 5 2010, 21:11
Post
#212
|
|
|
Trofast seer ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 347 Joined: 25. March 04 From: Åbyhøj, Århus Member No.: 126 |
Speed traps finder du vel på f1.com
Du kan finde dem her: FP1 FP2 FP3 Qual Race ![]() Jeg kan godt se hvad Newey mener omkring sikkerheden. Det må vel ændre balancen fuldstændig på langsiden når de staller bagvingen. Så når LH ændre sin bane, så mange gange som han gjorde i kampen mod Petrov, må der vel være en vis risiko ved systemet. Ved man noget om hvor meget trykket på vingen mindskes med ved dette system? Jeg kom også til at tænke på om det ændre på den urene luft bag bilen? -------------------- |
|
|
|
Apr 5 2010, 22:34
Post
#213
|
|
![]() Erfaren herre ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1.891 Joined: 5. May 04 From: Jylland- Danmark- Europa- Jorden- Mælkevejen- Universet Member No.: 145 |
Tak for de oplysninger - jeg havde været forbi f1.com men var gået ind under races in detail istedet for.
En lille sammenligning mellem Mac, Fer og RBR giver følgende resultat for Sepang: Ham 296, 303, 297.2, 287 But 299, 295.8, 297.5, 284.9 Alo 290.1, 294.1, 295.9, 284.1 Mas 290.4, 293.3, 297.6, 282.7 Web 286.3, 288.1, 300, 285.1 Vet 286.9, 293, 294.8, 283.6 Ud fra disse tal er det jo tydeligt at Mac har et tophastigheds overskud. Men Alonso formår i en syg Ferrari alligevel at køre en omgang der er 0.00.514 sekunder hurtigere end Hamilton og Weber er med absolut bedste tid 0.00.691 sekunder hurtigere end britten. Så selvom at Mac skulle kunne køre med lavere downforce og dermed opnå bedre hastighed udmynter det sig ikke i bedre omgangstider sammenlignet med de "langsommere" konkurenter. Men måske når vi kommer længere frem i sæsonen og Mac formår at udnytte systremet bedre kan det godt være der sker noget. Men indtil videre følger de andre altså rimelig godt med rundt. -------------------- "Monaco is just so bad, telemetry is bad, you can't see where the cars are really on the track, radio's bad ... but it'll be fine. It makes it interesting."
|
|
|
|
Apr 6 2010, 10:34
Post
#214
|
|
|
Begyndende fan ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 154 Joined: 15. February 07 From: Gl. Rye - lige ved siden af Himmelbjerget Member No.: 903 |
Den eneste måde, hvorpå man kan se, hvad McLarens F-duct system er værd er at sammenligne en McLaren med F-duct med en McLaren uden F-duct. Det har McLaren uden tvivl selv gjort.......men de vil nok ikke fortælle os, hvor meget det gav.
Det siger ingenting at sammenligne med andres tophastigheder, for hvem siger at McLaren udnytter systemet til at give en højere tophastighed end andre? De kan jo lige så vel have en stejlere vinge til mere downforce i svingene. Det vil normalt give en langsom bil på langsiden, men her hjælper F-ducten så til at komme op på samme hastighed som de andre. Man kunne nok mere frygte, at en McLaren uden F-duct ville være lidt en sløv slæde i feltet, siden den ikke gør mere væsen af sig end den gør. Og mht. Neweys kommentarer, så er han nok i gang med at snakke for et forbud, så han slipper for selv at skulle til at lave noget lignende. "To force a driver to make a sudden movement to change normal load conditions has to do with safety"!!!! Læs lige den en gang til og tænk så på, om ikke man ikke også skulle forbyde at bilerne har et rat -------------------- Mvh
Henning Smed www.danskerbiler.dk www.danskerbiler.dk/scuderia_pooh |
|
|
|
Apr 6 2010, 14:34
Post
#215
|
|
![]() Knowitall ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2.924 Joined: 26. May 05 From: Hampshire, UK Member No.: 299 |
Nu giver det nok også ekstra meget i et løb hvor de starter bagerst.
Straight-line speeden på Sepang er kæmpe vigtig for overhalingsmulighederme, men måske ikke helt så afgørende for lap-tiden. Massa og Alonso's problemer med Button understreger det med al tydelighed - deres bil var hurtigere, men pga. den manglende straight-line speed kan de ikke kommer forbi. Det er lidt ligesom en lille fattigmands-KERS. --- Men fedt at der stadig kan findes nye måder at udfordre designet og begrænsningerne, og at teams kan få en fordel ved at være dygtige eller opfindsomme. -------------------- "Do what is right for the car",
John Stevens |
|
|
|
Apr 21 2010, 04:17
Post
#216
|
|
![]() Knowitall ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2.772 Joined: 3. September 03 From: De danske S-togsstrækninger og de europæiske racerbaner Member No.: 21 |
Link til billeder og video
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/article...-they-work.html When McLaren's F-Duct system first appeared in pre-season testing it was hailed by many a a true stroke of genius, a classic example of out-thinking the regulations. With the basic idea being that the driver is able to alter the airflow over the rear wing, without infringing regulation 3.15 (below), and in doing so gain a speed advantage on straights. 3.15 Aerodynamic influence : With the exception of the cover described in Article 6.5.2 (when used in the pit lane), the driver adjustable bodywork described in Article 3.18 and the ducts described in Article 11.4, any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance : Must comply with the rules relating to bodywork Must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any degree of freedom) ; Must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car. This speed advantage appears to have given the team the upper hand at the Shanghai circuit, Racecar decided to investigate the theory behind the new system. Why is the F-Duct beneficial? Basic wing theory First we need to look at some basic aerodynamic theory regarding wing profiles and lift/drag ratios. At the simplest level a wing generates downforce due to its profile accelerating airflow on its lower surface in relation to the flow over the top surface. If flow is accelerated pressure drops, with the result being a pressure differential between the upper and lower surface of the wing and thus a net downward force, as illustrated below. Flaps and slot gaps If the angle of attack of a wing is increased it can ultimately 'stall' due to flow separation along the trailing edge, with a resultant loss in downforce and consequently aerodynamic grip. The above video shows a lift generating wing stalling, however the basic theory is the same for a downforce generating racecar wing. To get around this problem, dual element or slot-gap wings are used, these allow for some of the high pressure flow from the top surface of the wing to bleed to the lower surface of the wing. This increases the speed of the flow under the wing, increasing downforce and reducing the boundary flow separation. (See below) If you look at a modern F1 rear wing you can see this concept taken to the extreme, with multi-element wings creating huge amounts of downforce, the downside being a significant drag penalty. However if the flow over the 'flap' section of the wing can be stalled, the lift/drag ratio worsens, but the overall result is a massive drop in the coefficient of lift, resulting in a net reduction in drag, hence the benefits in relation to top speed. It should however be noted that it is only stalling the trailing edge flow that is beneficial as opposed to stalling the entire wing. Early solutions Previously teams had contrived to create flexible wing sections the allowed the 'slot gap' to close up under high aerodynamic loads, once this became evident to the governing bodies it was rapidly outlawed. Wings are now subject to static load tests to ensure that they cannot flex. So if a team were able to achieve a similar effect within the regulations, considerable straight-line performance gains could be made. Racecarcar spoke to a source in F1 to find out exactly how significant these gains could be. 'If you stall the flap on an F1-wing (in the wind tunnel) then the drag drops enough to calculate that the top-speed of the car could be 3-5kph faster (we did this ten years ago) but the trick is doing it in a way that's legal (well, not illegal). Wind tunnel engineers can do this by altering the slot-gap geometry and/or changing parts to simulate flexing-on-the-track. It's very easy to demonstrate in a wind tunnel - just very difficult to engineer it so that it's not illegal." McLaren's solution McLaren appear to have found a very neat solution for redirecting the airflow over the rear wing and consequently allowing the flap to stall. Whilst they have been very tight lipped about the system, it is most likely that the conduit from the front to rear of the car has a vent in the cockpit that can be blocked by the drivers left leg, which is not in use on long straights. Blocking the vent could direct enough airflow through the conduit to disrupt the flow over the rear flap and induce a stall. This approach is ingenious for two key reasons: :By using the drivers leg to direct the flow, the regulations are not contravened regarding movable areodynamic devices. :By incorporating the design into the monocoque it becomes very difficult for other teams to copy the device, due to the fact monocoques have to be homologated and changes are very expensive to make. Below are some images of the most probable routing for the system: (Illustrations by Craig Scarborough) Photographs of the Mclaren cockpit show a clear channel running alongside the driver. Additional pair of slot gaps in the upper rear wing element are fed by airflow from the duct that exits from the 'Shark Fin' enigne cover. Illustration of the most likely routing for the duct. Whilst the exact workings of the system are impossible to judge, the above explanation is the most likely. McLaren have managed to get a jump on their competition and a number of teams have already tested their own interpretations of the system, although whether these will integrate as efficiently with their existing aero packages remains to be seen. -------------------- Med venlig hilsen
Michael Ewert - F1journal.com Quote of the Week "I do not know where she is now, but if I was her, I would be up here smacking me upside the head for what I did" Markus Niemela at the Atlantic Series podium interview, after he totally screwed up on lap 1 and took out then point leader Simona De Silvestro in the Corkscrew, as she never saw him coming. Of course the championship for her was gone then. |
|
|
|
May 8 2010, 11:02
Post
#217
|
|
![]() Bedste F1 Manager '08 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Administrators Posts: 3.474 Joined: 5. September 03 From: Rønne og kbh Member No.: 25 |
Et anderledes luftindtag over køreren på Mercedes bilerne:
![]() ![]()
-------------------- /Allan/ Forstå hvad jeg mener, ikke hvad jeg skriver!
"Felipe Baby - Stay cool" |
|
|
|
![]() ![]() |
| Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 9th September 2010 - 00:01 |